Someone posted this on the H-D article on FP

"bob and john" (bobandjohn)
05/16/2018 at 11:18 • Filed to: None

As to why they couldnt give a shit less if H-D went under. And thinking about it, I agree with him.

Yeah, perhaps they could invest many millions into a bike that the youth are interested in - and then sell it in HD dealerships and treat the customers like shit. Then they could kill the company, rather than sell it to an interested party. See Buell.

Perhaps they could buy a fancy Italian company with a great brand name for $100,000,000 and sell it back for ONE FUCKING DOLLAR the next year. See MV Agusta.

Perhaps they could take what used to be the quickest bike available in the US (pre Japanese invasion) and have their dealers talk so much shit about it that a 1200cc 700 pound bike is considered a “girl’s bike” (as in a real man wouldn’t ride one). See Sportster (aka Skirtster)

Perhaps they should start a brand of aftermarket parts named after loud noise, and endlessly promote that “loud pipes equals freedumb”. See Screaming Eagle.

Fuck HD. They have pissed away every opportunity they ever had that didn’t involve building the same kind of bike over and over again. They shit on anybody who didn’t “ride American”, even though they only make cruisers. They shit on anybody who didn’t want full-fucking-retard loud bikes. They shit on Eric Buell and people who wanted to buy an American bike that was actually kind of sporty or off-roady. They shit on MV. They had so many chances to change, and fucked them all away.

Why the fuck should we care at this point?

Couldnt have said it better myself. Would much rather spend that coin on an indian and then some Jap sportbike to have fun with instead of ONE H-D

DISCUSSION (41)

jimz > bob and john
05/16/2018 at 11:36

thanks for your input.

Spaceball-Two > bob and john
05/16/2018 at 11:40

Spot fucking on. My dad was a huge HD guy up until he and all his buddies turned 70 and their eyes aren’t so good anymore and their joints hurt. So they dump the bikes and go out and buy Corvettes. The baby boomer well has dried up and it’s HD’s fault for not fucking evolving.

AestheticsInMotion > bob and john
05/16/2018 at 11:42

That last sentence is so true. The price is is just absolutely nuts for what you get

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > bob and john
05/16/2018 at 11:48

That’s part of my problem with HD, the other is that their bikes are way too expensive to get a new rider interested. Why on earth am I going to spend another $1-1.5k on a Street 500 when I can buy a new SV650 for like $5k?

Also, their brand means “weekend toy for an Accountant” to me, not “American Badass”.

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > bob and john
05/16/2018 at 11:49

hmmm... dont give a crap about harleys... but as they got mentioned... now i want a mv agusta

Kinja'd!!!

oh yeah.... under 5 grand too...

but i should probably get this one instead so the missus wont consider herself a widow the second she sees it

Kinja'd!!!

Spanfeller is a twat > bob and john
05/16/2018 at 11:49

I can’t think of a company that represents the generational divide like Harley does. People can’t spend 20k on a motorcycle that doesn’t grip, shakes like crazy, and isn’t fast, only people that buy nostalgia can, and those are going away.

So, harley had a connundrum, should they become more modern for the younger customer, or should they keep selling very expensive bikes to an ageing population? We know they chose the latter, and they will suffer for that.

shop-teacher > bob and john
05/16/2018 at 11:54

I don’t care what anybody says, I like Sportsters. I realize they are objectively not very good, and definitely too expensive for what they are. I doubt very much that I will ever own one, but if I were to buy a Harley someday, you bet your ass it’ll be a Sportster.

I agree that Harley has been it’s own worst enemy, and if they do go under it will be their own damn fault. That said, it would be sad to see an iconic (if albeit tarnished) American brand go under, and far sadder for all the people who would lose their jobs.

Here’s the thing though. That brand is way too valuable for it to cease to exist. Somebody will buy it. Hopefully that’s somebody with the vision, leadership, and capital to succeed where Harley has been unable to get out of its own way.

OPPOsaurus WRX > bob and john
05/16/2018 at 11:56

I bet they would be better if they paint the rebel flag on the gas tanks. I bet they do well as is it in that crowd.

DucST3-Red-1Liter-Standing-By > bob and john
05/16/2018 at 12:04

Agreed 100%, I won’t shed a tear when (not if) their demise comes.

Side story, my dad works with an ex-HD engineer. He said they developed a new engine in the early 2000s with amazing characteristics, lots of torque, smooth, high HP, very efficient, but the idiots in charge canned the project because it didn’t vibrate... Not enough ‘HD spirit’ they claimed

OmerCarrothers333 > bob and john
05/16/2018 at 12:05

EDIT: ALL OF THIS!!!

I ranted about the dealer experience on that article too. If I’m able to buy a bike, it’s probably gonna be one of those new Honda Rebels, and I’ll put a bar & shield on the tank that mimics Harley’s but says “Honda”.

Alfalfa > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now)
05/16/2018 at 12:05

Every time I see a group of Harley riders I say “Hey look! It’s the local accountant club!”

Alfalfa > farscythe - makin da cawfee!
05/16/2018 at 12:07

You could tell her the one on top is safer, and you would technically be correct. I’d rather have the bottom one myself, though.

Future next gen S2000 owner > bob and john
05/16/2018 at 12:10

HD reminds me of the old person on the block nursing a 1970's land yacht around complaining about everything. Things were fine back in my day, why change anything? - that sort of mentality.

Never mind that decisions made back then have been proved to be bad and misguided or left behind because of technology.

jimz > shop-teacher
05/16/2018 at 12:20

I don’t care what anybody says, I like Sportsters. I realize they are objectively not very good,

here’s where you go wrong. you’re supposed to let a bunch of 19 year olds on the internet tell you what you like.

jimz > DucST3-Red-1Liter-Standing-By
05/16/2018 at 12:23

hm, so what about the V-Rod engine which doesn’t (didn’t) vibrate, or the fully counterbalanced engines in the Softails?

experience has taught me that 95% of these “someone told me they heard from someone at company ” stories are mostly horseshit.

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > Alfalfa
05/16/2018 at 12:28

the bottom one would go rather well with me aviators cap n goggles :)

i want both of em lol

bob and john > OmerCarrothers333
05/16/2018 at 12:45

google luck finding them.

I work at a honda dealer. I had 20 rebels come in at the start of Feb.

6 weeks later, all gone.

bob and john > jimz
05/16/2018 at 12:47

the V-rod, which is shunned by H-D purists and canned because it wasnt selling?

the “doesnt vib enough’ thing is not the first time I’ve heard of it either.

jimz > bob and john
05/16/2018 at 12:54

the V-rod failed for the same reason Victory failed. they were answers to questions no one was asking.

bob and john > jimz
05/16/2018 at 13:04

it answered: here is what a H-D made with current century technology looks like.

And then, again, h-D die hards shunned it, dealers hated it, and it wasnt that supported. and then SHOCKER it wasnt selling and it stopped.

Crying shame.

bob and john > shop-teacher
05/16/2018 at 13:06

I dont have an issue with anyone liking the bikes.

I have an issue witht he hard-core “BACK IN MAH DAY” folks who wont let the compnay inovate and get with the times.

Shame it will be gone? yes. Will I be sad? nah. They had PLENTLY of chances to do something to help bring them back, but every time they fucked it hard and screwed it up.

jimz > bob and john
05/16/2018 at 13:20

it answered: here is what a H-D made with current century technology looks like.

That wasn’t the question anyone was asking for an answer to.

the question you should have been asking was “Who wants to buy a bike that’s like a Harley but a bit more modern looking?”

The answer to that one is “NO ONE.” That’s why the V-Rod failed, that’s why Victory failed, that’s why no one really buys the Japanese V-twin baggers. If someone wants a bagger that looks and feels like a Harley, they buy a Harley (or an Indian, maybe.) If they don’t, they buy a Gold Wing or K1600.

You need to grow up and stop acting like your personal preferences are some unassailable universal truth and that if you say something sucks, then the rest of the world is compelled to agree with you. Most of us do go through that phase at some point in our lives, but usually by the time we leave high school we stop trying to impress people by bragging about what we hate.

‘cos otherwise I can’t understand why you spend so much goddamned time talking about a company whose products you claim to be not interested in at all, or what other people choose to spend their money on. The existence of Harley-Davidson is not depriving you of the bikes you like. It is not preventing anyone from buying whatever other kinds of bikes they like. It is not preventing anyone from appreciating and/or owning multiple, varied bikes (example- myself.) and before you try to bring up things I’ve said in the past, please remember my ire is directed at certain cliques of people involved in motorcycling, not the bikes themselves. I can appreciate any kind of motorcycle which does well at what it’s intended to do.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > bob and john
05/16/2018 at 13:42

Aren’t the new Rebel 300 single jingles actually slower than the old Rebel 250 parallel twins?

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > bob and john
05/16/2018 at 13:44

Meanwhile the Shadow 750 does HD things better than HD does, lol.

Spanfeller is a twat > jimz
05/16/2018 at 14:27

But then what should HD do? You don’t loose your heritage by offering other products, BMW still sells boxer engines and honda still sells fast fours and flat sixes.

Beyond our personal prejudices for the bikes or the bikers, Harley didn’t want to adapt to a newer market where everyone has suffered because younger people don’t like bikes or can’t afford them. Instead they doubled down: constantly until their appeal was eventually too niche

bob and john > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
05/16/2018 at 14:39

nope. faster

bob and john > jimz
05/16/2018 at 14:41

victory failed because polaris bought victory and indian, and decided to axe victory.

I need to grow up and stop acting like??? ...(honestly I stopped reading here)
How about you being the dude who constantly: HD HD HD HD and somehow gets into arguments with EVERYONE about it? and is STILL sore about some 19 year old douches on sportbikes that made a snide comment...how many years ago?

I’m the one who needs to grow up? I at least have the excuse of actually being young.

you dont like my posts or opinions? then dont come here and comment. You have something actualy constuctive other then: ITS AN H-D YOU JUST DONT GET IT, by all means.

as far as “The answer to that one is “NO ONE.”” yea, thats why H-D has this kind of stuff being written about it:

https://jalopnik.com/harley-davidson-is-sad-and-getting-sadder-1822557878

shop-teacher > jimz
05/16/2018 at 14:56

I’m not much of a joiner. That’s why I ride a Taiwanese scooter.

shop-teacher > bob and john
05/16/2018 at 14:59

I don’t even have an issue with the “BACK IN MAH DAY” idiots. I don’t want to hang out with them, but it’s the company who was stupid to cow-tow to them. They could have kept making those types of bikes AND made innovative competitive bikes, but they got lazy. I’ll be sad for those who lose their jobs.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > bob and john
05/16/2018 at 14:59

Huh. I’m having an oddly hard time finding HP specs for the Rebel 300 and 500. I actually forgot the 500 existed entirely.

Pickup_man > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
05/16/2018 at 15:01

I’ve ridden several newer* Shadows and while they’re fine bikes even my 883 Sportster felt fast in comparison.

*I’ve also ridden an ‘83 750, and while the engine is nearly the same that bike had way more pep than the ‘05 or so that I’ve ridden. I have no idea why it would be that different, but it was.

jimz > Spanfeller is a twat
05/16/2018 at 15:04

But then what should HD do? You don’t loose your heritage by offering other products,

well yeah, I think we all know that, and I think they know that. but like most publicly-held companies, they spend resources on what fuels growth. the “soak the Boomers” gravy train went on for quite a while but they’re always beholden to shareholders who start bitching and moaning if a company “wastes resources” on anything which cuts into current profits and threatens to reduce their dividend by 5 cents a share.

Spanfeller is a twat > jimz
05/16/2018 at 15:14

So it’s the fault of the bean counters and the shareholders , as always

Pickup_man > bob and john
05/16/2018 at 15:18

I don’t want to see them die completely because honestly I like a lot of their bikes (Sportsters and Dynas/new Softtails), but there needs to be a massive shift in image and culture, at every level. Dealerships need to change the attitude of trying to be the biggest badass on the road with the biggest, loudest, shiniest/most black bike on the road, and just be more happy and willing to get people interested in riding in general, regardless of what kind of bike they’re on. People need to stop viewing Harley riders as assholes and posers, and a lot people who ride Harley’s need to stop being assholes. Everyone just needs to accept that people like things that you might not and just be happy to see another motorcyclist on the road. And the Motor Co. just needs to tell the diehards to fuck off and build bikes that they think will sell, regardless of whether or not it’s a traditional big twin cruiser. I’m super happy to see them bring the Livewire to market, even though I think it needs improvements (ie. range) and will probably be priced too high, I think it’s a great start to hopefully turn the company around.

Harley certainly brought all of this on themselves, but wishing death upon the company is a little much IMO. It’s kind of sad to see so many people who are in this “community” of bikers cheer on the demise of the most iconic brand of motorcycles ever. I’m not saying they don’t deserve some shit, but hoping they die off completely? That’s a little much if you ask me.

-Side note for the record, my local dealership has been great, happy to talk about the new Street Twins, Sportsters etc. Super helpful when I was looking at new Street Bobs, just as a comparison for the a used Street Bob I was really wanting to buy, let me test ride several new bikes knowing full well I wasn’t going to buy one, and had great things to say about the Yamaha Warrior I almost bought from a service tech there.

bob and john > Pickup_man
05/16/2018 at 15:44

I dont wish death on them. but Im certianly not going to cry a tear if/when they die. The did this to themselves and they had the money and chances to fix it. but they didnt.

Decay buys too many beaters > bob and john
05/16/2018 at 16:11

If only they could have taken the same route as Triumph. They have somehow managed to have offerings that are new and innovative right alongside stuff that is direct throwbacks to historic models.

It really is annoying to see the American manufacturers totally ignore every trend and keep making the same shit. They could have banked BIG on the scrambler fad without even changing much, but nooooo.

bob and john > Decay buys too many beaters
05/16/2018 at 16:18

Buell was/is the only american trying to make a proper sportbike.

Motus is basicly a bugatti. dude only cared about selling to rich snobs and didnt really care for the bikes to begin with.

bob and john > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
05/16/2018 at 16:19

its CBR300/500 motor

Decay buys too many beaters > bob and john
05/16/2018 at 16:25

Like dirtbikes. So many people around me race motocross and go trail riding. These are ‘murican truck and ‘murican flag bumper sticker having people. These are the people who would absolutely flock to an american company that catered to them.

I think we are currently at the forefront of electric bikes, but that is still quite a niche market.

nermal > bob and john
05/16/2018 at 18:12

I can’t disagree too heavily, although I doubt the brand will eventually cease to exist. There’s value in the name. Much like MV Agusta, there is opportunity for an outside investor to buy them out on the cheap.

See Ducati - They are doing things right, and the Porsche way at that. Still making the high end, aspirational models that they are famous for, yet also broadening their product portfolio and making more accessible, cheaper models that have the brand DNA.

pip bip - choose Corrour > bob and john
05/17/2018 at 04:58

i hope H-D does go bankrupt